Listen to the Class: 07072013CanAChristianFallAwayDonRuhl
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Can a Christian Fall Away?
Don Ruhl • Savage Street, Grants Pass, Oregon • July 7, In the year of our Lord, 2013
- Can a Christian Fall Away?
- Why does the Lord command repentance?
- Why does He command obedience?
- Why does He warn of condemnation?
- To whom did Jesus speak the Sermon on the Mount?
- Matt 5.1, 2
- Yet, listen to the warnings He gave His disciples:
- 5.20
- 5.21, 22
- 5.27–30
- To whom did Paul write the Book of Galatians?
- Gal 1.1–5
- Yet, consider what Paul said the Galatian churches were doing:
- 1.6–9
- 3.1
- 5.1–4
- To whom was the Book of Hebrews written?
- Heb 13.20–25
- Why was it written?
- 2.1–4
- 6.1–6
- Why Do Some People Believe Christians Cannot Fall Away?
- They believe that to say a Christian can, infringes upon God’s sovereignty.
- John 10.27–29
- 1Jo 1.5–10
- They emphasize one truth to the neglect of another.
- Remember that we must have the whole truth:
- Psa 119.160
- Acts 20.26, 27
- We can speak the truth, but
- if we do not give the whole truth,
- we have preached a half truth.
- We cannot use one teaching or passage of Scripture to trump others.
- Does the word of God contradict itself?
- How do we seek to understand the various teachings of the Bible?
- Remember that we must have the whole truth:
- They believe that to say a Christian can, infringes upon God’s sovereignty.
A Christian cannot fall away! It is impossible. If a child of God can stop being a child of God than he never was a child of God in the first place. A Christian will sin but God wipes away these sins like a windshield wiper , wipes away raindrops from a windshield, daily, momentarily, as they are committed because a child of God will immediately ask for forgiveness when he realizes he has sinned. If he doesn’t realize he has sinned than it is not a sin until he does realize it. Teaching that a Christian can fall away is a very self defeating doctrine and will discourage many people from even wanting to be a Christian.
One is always a child of God, although a child of God can be in a fallen state. If a Christian cannot fall away, then please explain the following passages:
Hebrews 3.12–15
Second Peter 2.20–22
Quoting Heb 3:14 “for we share in Christ IF ONLY. . . ” &
2Pet 2:22 “. . .the dog turns back to his own vomit . .”,
these people have obviously not yet become His
children. When we have become His child, this does not mean that we will
no longer sin, it just means that when we do, we will no longer
get away with it. Before we became His child, it will appear that we
are getting away with it. Whereas a Christian’s life will
continue to be ‘Hell on earth’ of his own making until we see the error of
our ways and do something about our sins. God will never give up
on us, simply because we ARE His, just as a human father is not
supposed to give up on his child when they are naughty.
Falling away means that we are no longer His child. How can one be a child of a loving father one minute and the next minute no longer be his child. That’s impossible. Please read Rom ch 7, especially vs 24 & 25. I am a very good example of the above. I had to go thru all kinds of hell on this earth until I finally learned to stop saying “Please, God, I’d rather do it myself”. But ‘Thank God’, He never gave up on me no matter how stubborn and hard headed I was. Jesus states that he never loses any that the Father has given Him. Please do not teach Christianity to be a religion of constant fear of doing something wrong. No one can live like that.
In Hebrews 3.12, the writer called his readers, “brethren,” because they were in fact Christians, but he warned them that they could fall into unbelief and depart from the living God. That is the Holy Spirit’s words, not mine.
He continued his thought in 4.11, “Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.” If a Christian cannot fall away, that passage makes no sense.
In Second Peter 2.20, the apostle speaks of those who, “have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,” meaning that they were Christians, but they could become entangled again in the pollutions of the world, and so their last state would be worse than before they were saved. If Christians cannot fall away, that passage makes no sense either.
To say that a Christian can fall away, does not mean the Lord will forget about us forever, but He still seeks us, and some Christians return, which is the point of the Parable of the Prodigal Son, and that is what you did!
Falling away does not mean we are no longer His child, but a child in apostasy.
Falling away does not mean a Christian can never return.
I will continue to teach what the Bible says, not explaining away passages, but explaining what they mean, and the Lord does want us to fear falling away, and He wants us to know that as long as we keep on following the Lord Jesus Christ, we have eternal security, and no one can take us away from Him.
Please do not teach that Christians can never fall away, because that encourages immoral behavior.
Au contraire mon frére. I never stopped being a Christian nor did I ever ‘fall away’ from being a Christian. I also cannot be compared with the prodigal son because there is no comparison. Also, the prodigal son never stopped being his father’s son, nor could he, this was impossible. Just as it is impossible for a Christian to stop being a Christian once he is a Christian. The prodigal son did stop doing the things his father wanted him to do and so his father allowed him to suffer the consequences of his actions which caused him to see the error of his ways and brought him back into his father’s loving arms, but he did not stop being his father’s son while he was suffering these consequences.
There are so many places in the bible where this statement is proven true that it is not feasible or possible for me to point them out. It is also impossible for a Christian to sin without consequences, simply because he is a Christian. But this is not falling away. Falling away is to stop being something that you formerly were but no longer are. If your understanding of this is true, what a cruel God we would have because it would be impossible to be a Christian just as it is impossible to not sin. With your understanding, only a saintly person that walks on water could ever be a Christian, that is, a person that never commits a sin, and, outside of Christ, there ain’t no such animal.
The difference between a person who has not asked to be a child of God, and one who has, is the child of God will always and forever be sorry for his sin and will try very hard to know what his Father wants him to do to correct it so that he can be an obedient child. The Holy Spirit will miraculously give him an insatiable hunger to know all he can know about his Father. Your teaching or understanding makes it impossible to be a child of God. It negates the power of Christ. With your teaching it would seem literally impossible to be a Christian, but with Him ‘everything is possible’.
I don’t seem to have the words to help you to be able to understand what I am trying to say, but I feel very strongly that this is one of the teachings that keeps many people away from Christ, that and the teaching of exclusivity. I suspect this may be why God teaches us in 1John 2:27 that once we have the anointing of the Holy Spirit as our teacher, that is once we become His child, we no longer need man to teach us because man tends to teach erroneously.
Also, I call you a brother although I don’t know if you are truly a Christian. Only you and God can know that for sure, just as you cannot know for sure if I am a Christian. The writer of Hebrews, being a man, could not know for sure if everyone in his audience were Christians either. Just because he called them brethren is not proof they were children of God. I believe this should be understood to read what could, and probably will, happen to them if they choose not to become God’s children.
Regarding your statement, “they could become entangled again in the pollutions of the world, and so their last state would be worse than before they were saved” If one hears and almost decides to follow Jesus but doesn’t, then his state definitely becomes worse than before. He has never been saved because he has decided against it, and the more he decides against it the less likely it is that he will ever decide for it.
I have, and all Christians have, already entered His rest for we will never see the second death. This is what He means when He says He has removed the sting of death. I am safe. Not because of anything that I have done or could do but because of His power and promise to me. Also, because of His promise I know that I don’t have to live in constant fear of ‘falling away’ for He won’t let me. It is His power that will keep me safe from myself. What the Father has given to Him, He will not lose. What a wonderful God we have!
You seem to have the concept that falling away means one is no longer a Christian. That is an incorrect definition. One can be a child of God in apostasy. That is the point of The Parable of the Prodigal Son, otherwise, why is it in the Bible?
Were the first recipients of the Hebrew letter Christians? You say that the writer was only a man, and therefore, could not know whether they were or not. However, he was inspired by the Holy Spirit, and the writer knew these people. I referenced Hebrews 3.12 in which he called them, “brethren,” but listen to how the Holy Spirit-inspired writer addressed them before that passage, “Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus” (Heb 3.1). They were partakers of the heavenly calling, meaning they were brethren in Christ, and they were saved, people who would partake of heaven itself! How then can you say the writer did not know whether they were Christians?
To those same people, he warned them about departing from God (3.12), and that they had to be careful lest they would drift away (2.1), for they would not escape (2.2). He said further to these people who were already Christians, not people who were contemplating being Christians, “Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience” (Heb 4.11).
I am speaking the oracles of God, and I shall continue to do so, giving the proper balance on any subject, including salvation, showing that it is possible to fall away, but that if we continue to walk in the light as He is in the light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.
That is not my doctrine or wording, nor is it the invention of the the Church of Christ, it is written in Scripture!
What is the definition of apostasy? According to Wikepedia:
Apostasy in Christianity refers to the rejection of Christianity by someone who formerly was a Christian. The term apostasy comes from the Greek word apostasia meaning defection, departure, revolt or rebellion. It has been described as “a willful falling away from, or rebellion against, Christianity. Apostasy is the rejection of Christ by one who has been a Christian”. Apostasy is a theological category describing those who have voluntarily and consciously abandoned their faith in the God of the covenant, who manifests himself most completely in Jesus Christ.
However, I maintain that there is no such thing as a Christian in apostasy. I maintain that the bible teaches eternal security in our salvation and not conditional security as your interpretation teaches. Please read the following which explains this interpretation much better than I can:
Question: “What is conditional security?”
Answer:“Conditional security” is a theological term used in reference to the salvation of believers in Jesus Christ. It describes the supposedly tentative quality of the Christian’s salvation. In other words, a Christian’s salvation is “conditionally secure.” This begs the question: upon what condition is the believer’s salvation secure? Proponents of conditional security assert that the salvation is conditional upon remaining faithful until the very end. To use an analogy the Bible uses, the athlete must finish the race in order to receive the prize. To support this view, those who adhere to the doctrine of conditional security would point to such biblical passages as the following:
“And many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.” (Matthew 24:11-13)
“So therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.” (Romans 8:12-14)
“Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.” (1 Corinthians 15:1-2)
“Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.” (Galatians 6:7-9)
These passages, and many others that could be cited, point to the conditional quality of the believer’s salvation. In each of these passages, the biblical author (under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit) uses conditional language (e.g., if you endure, then you will be saved) to highlight the nature of the believer’s security in Christ. In order to ensure the security of our salvation, the believer must: 1) Endure to the end; 2) live by the Spirit; 3) hold fast to the preached word; and 4) sow to the Spirit. It’s not as if the gift of salvation is lacking in any way, but the individual believer must earnestly strive to remain faithful. In the words of Paul, “work out your own salvation with fear and trembling” (Philippians 2:12).
Given the weight of the biblical evidence, it would seem that the view of conditional security is unassailable. How could anyone argue with the notion that the believer must remain faithful until the end to secure his salvation? Yet, there is another side to this debate. This is the age-old theological debate between Arminians (those who hold to conditional security) and Calvinists (those who hold to what it called “eternal” security or Perseverance of the Saints). Where the Arminian can trot out dozens of biblical passages that point to the believer’s conditional security, the Calvinist can point to an equally large array of biblical passages to support the view of eternal security, such as the following:
“For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible.” (Matthew 24:24)
“For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Romans 8:38-39)
“I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.” (John 10:28-29)
“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.” (Ephesians 1:13-14)
Just as with conditional security, many more passages could be listed that detail the eternal security of the true follower of Christ. For each of the above passages, one thing stands out—the eternal security of the believer has nothing at all to do with the individual effort of the believer, but on the preserving grace of God, whereas the passages that support conditional security seem to focus on the believer’s ability to remain faithful.
What are we to make of all this? Does the Bible teach both conditional and eternal security? Does God speak with a “forked tongue”? The answer to both questions is “no.” Yet, we must be able to reconcile the passages that speak of the believer remaining faithful with the passages that speak of God preserving the believer to the end. The key to this riddle is in looking at what theologians have called the Doctrines of Grace (DoG). The DoG have been alternately called the Five Points of Calvinism (a misnomer as Calvin never articulated just “five points”) or TULIP (an acronym based on the aforementioned five points). Here, in brief, are the DoGe:
Total Depravity: Due to original sin, man is born thoroughly corrupt and is unable to do anything pleasing to God, nor does he seek after God.
Unconditional Election: Because of man’s depravity, God must step in to secure the salvation of the believer. God does this by electing him unconditionally (i.e., man contributes nothing) to salvation.
Limited Atonement: In order to receive those God has elected unto salvation, atonement must be made to satisfy God’s righteous judgment on their sin. God does this through the sacrifice of His Son, Jesus Christ.
Irresistible Grace: God applies the merits of this salvation in “real time” by drawing His elect irresistibly to Him by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit. This is accomplished through the means of preaching the gospel. (That’s your job, Don, and you do it well.)
Perseverance of the Saints: The salvation God has wrought for believers is seen through to the end as God preserves and sanctifies His elect until the end.
In order to evaluate whether or not the believer’s salvation is conditionally or eternally secure, one must first deal with the preceding five points of the DoG. Perseverance of the saints is not a stand-alone doctrine, but logically rests upon the other four points. The linchpin of the DoG is the first point, total depravity, which, if true, the other four points must necessarily follow. Space does not permit a thorough defense of the doctrine of total depravity, but suffice it to say that the Bible unequivocally teaches that man is, on his own, totally incapable of coming to God for his salvation (Matthew 19:25-26;John 6:44;Romans 3:10-18; and many more).
Critics of Calvinism and the DoG will assert that if we teach and hold to these doctrines, holiness and piety will go out the window. In other words, if salvation is eternally secure, what restrains a believer from sinning at will? Claiming faith in Christ becomes the ultimate “get out of hell” card. The Apostle Paul asked the same question in Romans 6:1. Paul’s response was that sin is not compatible with the new life in Christ (Romans 6:2-4). Far from advocating a license to sin, the DoG actually do more to promote Christian piety than the doctrine of conditional security. The Puritans, known for, among other things, their piety and strict devotion to holy living, were predominantly Calvinists. In the DoG, piety is seen as the grateful response of the believer for God’s amazing grace in salvation (Romans 12:1-2). These doctrines, if held and believed rightly, make the works we do a response of true love to our gracious God who loved us enough to save us from our sin and misery. The Heidelberg Catechism (one of the earliest confessional documents of the Protestant Reformation and a teaching tool for children and new believers) is broken into three sections: The Misery of Man (our sinful state); Of Man’s Deliverance (God’s gracious act of salvation through Jesus Christ); and Of Thankfulness (our response to God’s grace, which also outlines our duty as Christians).
So if we accept the premise that the DoG are true (i.e., biblical), then how do we reconcile that with all of those passages that purportedly speak to conditional security? The short answer is that we (believers) persevere (remain faithful until the end) because God preserves us. To put it another way, if we do nothing to obtain or earn salvation (salvation being a free gift of God’s grace), then how can we lose salvation? Conditional security is acceptable only to those who also believe that they somehow contributed to their salvation in the first place (which Arminian theology logically implies). But this flies in the face of such passages as Ephesians 2:8-9: “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast,” which clearly assert that we contribute absolutely nothing to our salvation; even the faith necessary to receive the gift of grace, is itself a gift of God.
On the other hand, Arminianism gives man a reason to boast in the end. If by my cooperation with the Spirit of God I remain faithful to the end, I can boast (a little) about how I was able to stay the course and finish the race. However, there will be no boasting in heaven except to boast in the Lord (1 Corinthians 1:31). The doctrine of conditional security is not biblical; the Bible is quite clear that we persevere because God preserves us.
No man is your teacher, but you use a man to teach me. That is interesting.
The fact is the New Testament epistles were written to either Christians or Churches, not to the world or people in the world contemplating becoming Christians. The language is clear that the writers, such as Hebrews, was written to Christians, who were in danger of falling away, otherwise, there is no point to the Book of Hebrews.
Also, When Paul wrote to the churches of Galatia, he said they were turning away from God (1.6). That Christians can fall away is made super clear in Galatians 5.4, “You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.” If Christians cannot fall away, then why did Paul warn them about becoming estranged from Christ and falling from grace? This is not Church of Christ doctrine, this is the language of the Holy Spirit.
Which of us is correct? I guess only God can answer that question, for the two of us understand salvation very differently.
Regarding ‘man’ teaching us; ‘Man’ (& ‘Woman’) has been and still is teaching me but the bottom line is the Holy Spirit must be the deciding factor because ‘man’ sometimes teaches error. The article that I sent you was found on the internet and explains the Holy Spirit’s interpretation for me, exactly. This is why I sent it on to you.
I have learned much from you, Don. In my opinion you are one of God’s instruments. But I think we must part company on your understanding of salvation being conditional.
Yes, you are correct, we must part company on this issue, and that the Holy Spirit is the final Judge.
PS. I don’t believe my understanding encourages immoral behavior. I believe it does just the opposite.